Talks with Maharshi

By K.
(Kapali Sastry)

Editor’s note

Foreword

THE “TALKS WITH SRI MAHARSHI” are mainly selected from conversations that D has had with him since 1912. Some of these were later incorporated into the Ramana Geeta and. one or two booklets. These talks are given with a view to introduce the general reader to the main work, the philosophy of Sat-Darshan. The conversations with Sri Maharshi have been generally in Tamil, intermixed with a few English and Sanskrit words. We do not say ‘you’ in talking to him, nor does he refer to himself as ‘I’. They are used here for the purpose of the English version. The name of D is not mentioned as it is considered unnecessary for the purpose of the subject.

K.

Arunachala

Let’s open the Talks with prayer to the Divine Lord, Arunachala (the glowing Peak of Light) hymned by the great seer,⁠1 the chosen one:

Talk 1
Initial doubts

Devotee. You say one can realise the self by a search for it. What is the character of this search?

Maharshi. You are the mind or think that you are the mind. The mind is nothing but thoughts. Now behind every particular thought there is a general thought which is the “I”, that is yourself. Let us call this “I” the first thought. Stick to this I-thought and question it to find out what it is. When this question takes strong hold on you, you cannot think of other thoughts.

D. When I do like this and cling to my self, i.e., the I-thought, other thoughts do come and go, but I say to myself ‘Who am I?’ and there is no answer forthcoming. To be in this condition is the Sadhana. Is it so?

M. This is a mistake that people often make. What happens when you make a serious quest for the Self is that the I-thought as a thought disappears, something else from the depths takes hold of you and that is not the ‘I’ which commenced the quest.

D. What is this something else?

M. That is the real Self, the import of I. It is not the ego. It is the Supreme Being itself.

Talk 2
Rejection of thoughts

D. But you have often said that one must reject other thoughts when he begins the quest, but the thoughts are endless; if one thought is rejected, another comes and there seems to be no end at all.

M. I do not say that you must go on rejecting thoughts. If you cling to yourself, say the I-thought, and when your interest keeps you to that single idea, other thoughts get rejected, automatically they vanish.

D. And so rejection of thoughts is not necessary?

M. No. It may be necessary for a time or for some. You fancy that there is no end if one goes on rejecting every thought when it rises. No. There is an end. If you are vigilant, and make a stern effort to reject every thought when it rises, you will soon find that you are going deeper and deeper into your own inner self, where there is no need for your effort to reject the thoughts.

D. Then it is possible to be without effort, without strain!

M. Not only that, it is impossible for you to make an effort beyond a certain extent.

D. I want to be further enlightened. Should I try to make no effort at all?

M. Here it is impossible for you to be without effort. When you go deeper, it is impossible for you to make any effort.

Talk 3
Vichara and the Grace

D. Then I can dispense with outside help and by mine own effort get into the deeper truth by myself.

M. True. But the very fact that you are possessed of the quest of the Self is a manifestation of the Divine Grace Arul. It is effulgent in the Heart, the inner being, the Real Self. It draws you from within. You have to attempt to get in from without. Your attempt is Vichara (earnest-quest), the deep inner movement is Grace Arul. That is why I say there is no real Vichara without Grace, nor is there Grace active for him who is without Vichara. Both are necessary.

Talk 4
The Sad-Guru

D. You have else where stated that without the grace of the Sad-guru one cannot get at the Self. What precisely do you mean by this? What is this Guru?

M. From the standpoint of the path of knowledge it is the supreme state of the Self, which is the Sad-guru. It is different from the ego-self, which you call your self.

D. Then if it is the supreme state of my own self, in what sense do you mean that I cannot reach it without the grace of the Sad-guru?

M. The ego-self is the Jeeva. It is different from the Lord of all (Sarveshwara). When through disinterested JOIN devotion the Jeeva approaches the Lord, He graciously assumes name and form and takes the Jeeva into himself. …Therefore, they say the Guru is none other than the Lord. He is a human embodiment of the Divine Grace. ज्ञानी त्वात्मैव मे मतम्, says the Gita. The real Guru is God himself. Who can doubt this?

D. But there are some who seem to have had no human Guru at all.

M. True. In the case of certain great souls God reveals himself as the Light of their light from within.

D. Then what is true devotion (Bhakti)?

M. Whatever I do or consider myself doing is really the Lord’s doing. Nothing really belongs to me. I am here for the service of the Lord. This spirit of service Arul uruvam is really devotion supreme and the true devotee sees theSupreme Being as the Lord immanent in everything. Worship of Him by name and form leads one beyond all name and form. Devotion complete culminates in knowledge supreme.

Even when Bhakti (devotion) is actuated by worldly desires in the beginning, it does not cease when the desires are fulfilled. It increases by an unshakable faith growing perfectly into a supreme state of realization.

D. Then what is the path of Jnāna?

M. Stripped of the ego he establishes himself naturally in supreme Self-awareness.

D. How can we say that both Bhakti and Jnana lead to the same goal?

M. Why not? Both paths lead you to a state of supreme Peace (Mounam) that passeth all understanding.

(NOTE:—All must accept that there is a Lord of all the Jeevas. One can quite well take this as the truth, if one earnestly wishes to reach the Sayujya state, that is the State of conscious union. Cf. Instructions to Natanananda Swami.⁠9

Talk 5
The Self within waits for you

D. You often say, ‘the whole world exists not without you’, ‘everything depends upon you,’ ‘what is there without you?’, etc. This is really baffling. The world was there before my birth. It will be there after my death even as it has survived the deaths of so many who once lived as I am living now.

M. Did I ever say that the world is there because of you? But I have put to you the question ‘what is there without your self?’ You must know that by the self the body, subtle or gross, was not meant.

Besides, the idea is put to you that if you once know the Self in which all the ideas move, not excluding the idea of yourself, of others like yourself and of the world, you can realise the truth that there is a Reality, a supreme Truth which is the Self of all the world you now see, the Self of all the selves, JOIN the one Real, which is the Parama Atman, the supreme Eternal, as distinguished from the Jeeva, the ego-self which is impermanent. You must not mistake the ego-self or the bodily idea for the Atman.

D. Then you mean the Atman is God?

M. You see the difficulty. The Vichāra ‘to know the self’ is different in method from the meditation “Shivoham” or “Soham”, “Lord Shiva I am” or “He I am.” I rather lay stress upon self-knowledge, for, you are first concerned with yourself before you proceed to know the world and its Lord. The “Soham” meditation or ‘I am Brahman’ meditation is more or less a mental thought. But the quest for the self I speak of is a direct method, indeed superior to the other meditation; for, the moment you get into a movement of quest for the self and go deeper and deeper, the real Self is waiting there to take you in and then whatever is done is done by something else and you have no hand in it. In this process, all doubts and discussions are automatically given up just as one who sleeps forgets, for the time being, all his cares.

D. What certainty is there that something else waits there to welcome me?

M. When one is a sufficiently developed soul (Pakvi) he becomes naturally convinced.

D. How is this development possible?

M. Various answers are given. But whatever the previous development, Vichara (earnest quest) quickens the development.

D. That is arguing in a circle. I am developed and so am strong for the quest. The quest itself gives my development.

M. The mind has always this sort of difficulty. It wants a certain theory to satisfy itself. Really, no theory is necessary for the man who seriously desires to approach God or to realise his own true being.

Various means are enjoined in the Shastras… It is true that contact with great men, exalted souls, is one effective means. सहवासेन महतां सतामारूढचेतसाम् (Ramana Gita 6:12.)

Talk 6
Vichara not intellectual but inward and subtle

D. If I go on rejecting thoughts can I call it Vichara?

M. It may be a stepping stone. But really Vichara begins when you cling to your Self and are already off the mental movement, the thought-waves.

D. Then Vichara is not intellectual?

M. No, it is Anthara vichāra, inner quest.

D. That is Dhyāna?

M. To stick to a position unassailed by thoughts is Abhyasa or Sadhana; you are watchful. But the condition grows intenser and deeper when your effort and all responsibilities are taken away from you; that is Aroodha, Siddhi state.

Talk 7
Jnana Siddhi, no inactivity

D. Can a man move about, act and speak who has attained the Siddhi, as is now described?

M. Why not? Do you mean to say that realisation of Self means to be like a stone or to become nothing?

D. I do not know, but they say that to withdraw from all sense-activity, from all thoughts, all life-experiences, i.e., to cease to be active, is the highest state.

M. If so, what is the difference between this state and deep sleep? Besides, if it is a state, however exalted it be, that appears and disappears and is, therefore, not natural and normal to the self, how can that represent the eternal presence of the supreme Self, which persists in all states and indeed survives them? It is true that there is such a state indispensable in the case of some. It is a temporary phase of the Sādhana or a state that persists to the end of the life if that be the Divine will or the Prārabdha. In any case you cannot call it the highest state. Great men, Muktas, Siddhas, are said to have been very active and are indeed active; Ishwara Himself, the Spirit who presides over this world directing its activities, is obviously not in this supremely inactive state. Otherwise you may as well say that God as well as the Mukta purushas have not attained the highest state.

D. But you have always laid great stress on Mounam (silence)…

M. Yes. I have. But silence does not mean negation of activity or stagnant inertness. It is not a mere negation JOIN of thoughts but something more positive than you can imagine.

D. Is it unthinkable…?

M. Yes. As long as you run with the running mind you cannot have it. The silence of the Self is ever there. It is a supreme Peace (mounam) immutable like a rock that supports all your activities, in fact, all movements. It is in this mounem that God and the Mukta purushas are rooted.

Talk 8
Samadhi, Nirvikalpa and Sahājā — Trance and natural

D. Then what is Samādhi?

M. In Yoga the term Samādhi refers to some kind of trance and there are various kinds of Samadhi. But the Samādhi I speak of is different. It is Sahaja Samādhi. For, here you have Samādhāna, you remain calm and composed even while you are active; you realise that you are moved by the deeper Real Self within. You have no worries, no anxieties, no cares. For, here you come to realise that there is nothing belonging to you, the ego. And everything is done by Something with which you get into conscious union.

D. If this is Sahaja Samādhi and the most desirable condition there is no need for Nirvikalpa Samādhi?

M. The Nirvikalpa Samadhi of Raja Yoga may have its use. But in Jnana this Sahaja Sthiti or Sahja Nishthā JOIN itself is Nirvikalpa state. For, in this state the mind is free from doubts. It has no need to swing between alternatives of possibilities and probabilities. It has no vikalpa of any kind. It is sure of the Truth. It feels the presence of the Real. Even when it is active, it knows it is active in the Reality, the Self, the Supreme being.

Talk 9
Is Brahman beyond?

D. This seems to contradict the statements that the Self is beyond the mind, that the mind cannot know Brahman, that it is beyond thought and speech (avāngmanasagochara).

M. That is why they say that mind is two fold; there is the higher pure mind as well as the lower impure mind. The impure mind cannot know it but the pure knows. It does not mean that the pure mind measures the immeasurable Self, the Brahman. It means that the Self makes itself felt in the pure mind so that even when you are in the midst of thoughts you feel the Presence, you realise the truth that you are one with the deeper Self and that the thought-waves are there only on the surface.

D. That means the mano nasha or the ahankāra nāsha. The destruction of the mind or of the ego you speak of is then not an absolute destruction.

M. Yes. The mind gets clear of impurities and becomes pure enough to reflect the truth, the real Self. This is impossible when the ego is active and assertive.

Talk 10
Retiring abode in the body

D. Whenever a question is put to you, you say “Know first who it is to whom the doubt occurs”, “Does anybody doubt the doubter?”, “Know yourself before you proceed to speak of others”, etc. This is a vertiable Brahmāstra (supreme weapon) at your hands to deal with the questioner and I, …

M. Yes. What are you trying to say?

D. Be pleased to come to our level and remove our doubts. You can understand our position. We cannot understand yours. You are far above and we are far below. If you wish, you can come to us, we cannot go to you.

M. What are you driving at?

D. They say the Self is everywhere; Brahman is omnipresent. It is beyond and it is also the Self. If my Self is Brahman, I should be everywhere. But there is the feeling that I am in this body or confined to this body; even if I am distinct from the body I am inseparable from it. Similarly I am inseparable from the mind, even the ‘I’ seems to be a part of the mind. Where is the mind without the brain? Certainly, I cannot imagine that I can be without the mind or the brain which is a part of this body.

M. Have you finished? Doubts never end. If one doubt is removed another takes its place. It is like removing the leaves of a tree one by one. Even if all the leaves are chipped off, new ones grow. The tree itself must be up-rooted.

D. What can be done? Is it wrong to think and express doubts?

M. No. The only sure remedy is to know him who doubts. No one doubts the doubter…

D. This is what I feared. I am gagged…

M. No. I am coming to the rescue. Suppose I give you an answer, would it set at rest all your doubts?… you said you are the body, the mind and so on. What is this mind, which, you say, in your self? You say, it is all thoughts including so many faculties.—…The “I” is a part of the mind.—The mind is a part of the body, is it not?

D. I don’t say that is so; but I feel as though it were.

M. Yes, then let us proceed. You are the mind. The mind is either located in the brain or is identical with it. You concede it is located in the brain. At the same time you said you are distinct from it though not separate from it. Is that not so? Then let us locate in the body all our thoughts, emotions, passions, desires, attachments, impulses, instincts, in short, all that we are, feel, think and know. Where would you locate the “I”, whether the “I” is an idea, thought or feeling?

D. Feeling, emotions, etc., are all located, that is, said to arise, in the trunk of the body, in the nervous system; but the mind seated in the brain is aware of them. They call it reflex action.

M. So if you take the “I” as a part of the mind, you JOIN would locate it in the brain. But I tell you this “I” is a part indeed but a very radical part of the mind, feeling itself to be distinct from the mind and using it.

D. I concede that.

M. Then this “I” is a radical thought, an intimate feeling, a self-evident experience, an awareness that persists even in deep sleep when the mind is not active as in the waking state. According to yourself then, “I”, the radical part, must have a locus in the body.

D. Where is it?

M. You have to find it out yourself. But you can’t find it by dissection of the body.

D. How then? By dissection of the mind?

M. Yes, as you are the mind, you have to dissect yourself and find out where you (the “I”) are. That is why I say, “know thyself”.

D. But is there really a centre, a place for this “I”?

M. There is. It is the centre of the self to which the mind in sleep retires from its activity in the brain. It is the Heart, which is different from the blood vessel, so called, and is not the Anāhata Chakra in the middle of the chest, one of the six centres spoken of in books on Yoga.

D. Then where is it? Perhaps I shall know it later. If there is such a centre of the self in the body why should they JOIN say that Brahman is Atman, that it is all-pervasive and so on?

M. First confine your self to the self which is located in the body and find that out. Then you can think of Brahman, the All-Presence.

Talk 11
What is my self now?

D. I want to know what the Heart is and where it is and so forth. But I want to have this doubt cleared first. I am ignorant of my own truth, my knowledge is limited, imperfect. You say “I” means the self, Atman. But the Atman is said to be always self-aware whereas I am unaware…

M. People always fall into this confusion. What you call your self now is not the real Self which is neither born nor dies.

D. Then you admit that what I call my self is the body or part of the body.

M. But the body is matter (Jada), it never knows, it is always the known.

D. Then, if I am neither the Atman, the Self nor the Anatman, the not-self…

M. I am coming to the rescue. Between spirit and matter, the self and the body, there is born something which JOIN is called the Ahamkāra, the ego-self, Jeeva, the living being. Now what you call your self is this ego-self which is different from the ever-conscious Self and from unconscious matter, but which at the same time partakes of the character of both spirit and the matter Chetana and Jada.

D. Then when you say “know thyself” you want me to know this ego-self?

M. But the moment the ego-self tried to know itself, it changes its character; it begins to partake less and less of the Jada, in which it is absorbed, and more and more of the Consciousness of the Self, the Atman.

Talk 12
The secret locus of the Self

D. Then whom do you address when you say ‘know thyself’?

M. To whatever you are; to you is given the suggestion ‘know thyself’. The ego-self, when it feels the necessity to know its own origin or impelled to rise above itself, takes the suggestion and goes deeper and there discovers the true source and reality of itself. So the ego-self beginning to know itself ends in perceiving its Self.

D. Now, you were telling me that the Heart is the centre of the Self…

M. Yes, it is the one supreme centre of the Self. You need have no doubt about it. The Real Self is there in the Heart behind the Jeeva or ego-self.

D. Now be pleased to tell me where it is in the body.

M. You cannot know it with your mind. You cannot realise it by imagination, when I tell you here is the centre (pointing to the right side of the chest). The only direct way to realise it is to cease to fancy and try to be yourself. Then you realise, automatically feel that the centre is there. This is the centre, the Heart, spoken of in the scriptures Hrith-Guha (cavity of the Heart), Arul (Ullam).

D. In no book have I found it stated that it is there.

M. Long after I came here I chanced upon a verse in in the Malayalam version of Ashtāngahridayam, the standard work on Ayurveda, wherein the Ojas Sthana is mentioned as located in the right side of the chest, called the seat of consciousness (Samvit). But I know of no other work, which refers to it as being located there.

D. Can I be sure that the ancients meant this centre by the term ‘Heart’?

M. Yes, that is so. But you should try to HAVE, rather than to locate the experience. A man need not go to find out where his eyes are situated when he wants to see. The Heart is there ever open to you if you care to enter it, ever supporting all your movements even when you are unaware. It is perhaps more proper to say that the Self is the Heart JOIN itself than to say that it is in the Heart. Really, the Self is the centre itself. It is everywhere, aware of itself as ‘Heart’, the Self-awareness. Hence I said “Heart is Thy name”. 'हृदयं ते नाम’.

D. Has anyone else addressed the Lord thus, naming him the Heart?

M. Long after I said this, one day I came across a hymn in St. Appar’s Thevaram, where he mentions the Lord by the name Ullam which is the same as the Heart.

D. When you say that the Heart is the supreme centre of the Purusha, the Atman, you imply that it is not one of the six yogic centres.

M. The yogic chakras counting from the bottom to the top are various centres in the nervous system. They represent various steps manifesting different kinds of power or knowledge leading to the Sahasrāra, the thousand-petalled lotus, where is seated the supreme Shakti. But the Self that supports the whole movement of Shakti is not placed there, but supports it from the Heart centre.

D. Then it is different from the Shakti manifestation

M. Really there is no Shakti manifestation apart from the Self. The Self has become all this Shakti.…

When the yogin rises to the highest centre of trance, Samādhi, it is the Self in the Heart that supports him in that state whether he is aware of it or not. But if he is aware in the Heart, he knows that whatever states or whatever centres JOIN he is in, it is always the same truth, the same Heart, the one Self, the Spirit that is present throughout, eternal and immutable. The Tantra Shastra calls the Heart Suryomandala or solar orb, and the Sahasrāra, Chandramandala or lunar orb. These symbols present the relative importance of the two, the Atmasthana and the Shakti Sthana.

Talk 13
Realisation and bodily experience

D. Then what is the difference between the Baddha and the Mukta, the bound man and the one liberated?

M. From the Heart, the Self-centre, there is a subtle passage leading to the Sahasrāra, the Shakti Sthana. The ordinary man lives in the brain unaware of himself in the Heart. The Jnana Siddha lives in the Heart. When he moves about and deals with men and things, he knows that what he sees is not separate from the one Supreme Reality, the Brahman which he realised in the Heart as his own Self, the Real.

D. …What about the ordinary man?

M. I have just said that he sees things outside himself. He is separate from the world, from his own deeper truth, from the truth that supports him and what he sees. The man who has realised the supreme Truth of his own existence realises that it is the one supreme Reality that is there behind him, behind the world. In fact, he is aware of the One, as the Real, the Self in all selves, in all things, Eternal and Immutable, in all that is impermanent and mutable.

D. You speak in very high terms of knowledge; I began with the body. Is there any difference between the Jnānin and the Ajnānin in bodily experience?

M. There is. How can it be otherwise? I have often declared it.

D. Then the Vedānta Jnana as spoken of and discussed is perhaps different from what is practised and realised. You often say that there is the real meaning of “I” in the Heart.…

M. Yes, when you go deeper you lose yourself, as it were, in the abysmal depths, then the Reality which is the Atman that was behind you all the while takes hold of you. It is an incessant flash of I-consciousness, you can be aware of it, feel it, hear it, sense it, so to say; this is what ‘I call’ Aham sphoorti.

D. You said that the Atman is immutable, self-effulgent, etc. But if you speak at the same time of the incessant flash of I-consciousness, of this ‘Aham sphoorti’ does that not imply movement, which cannot be complete realisation, in which there is no movement?

M. What do you mean by complete realisation? Does it mean becoming a stone, an inert mass? The Aham vritti is different from Aham Sphoorti. The former is the activity of the ego, and is bound to lose itself and make way for the latter which is an eternal expression of the Self. In Vedantic parlance this Aham Sphoorti is called Vritti Jnāna. Realisation or Jnana is always a Vritti. There is a distinction between Vritti Jnana or Realisation and Swaroopa the Real. Swaroopa is Jnana itself, it is Consciousness.

Swaroopa is Sat Chit which is omnipresent. It is always there self-attained. When you realise it, the realisation is called Vritti Jnana. It is only with reference to your existence, that you talk of realisation or Jnana. Therefore, when we talk of Jnāna, we always mean Vritti Jnāna and not Swaroopa Jnana; for Swaroopa itself is Jnana (Consciousness) always.

D. So far I understand. But what about the body? How could I feel this Vritti-Jnana in the body?

M. You can feel yourself one with the One that exists: the whole body becomes a mere power, a force-current: your life becomes a needle drawn to a huge mass of magnet and as you go deeper and deeper, you become a mere centre and then not even that, for you become a mere consciousness, there are no thoughts or cares any longer—they were shattered at the threshold;—it is an inundation; you, a mere straw, you are swallowed alive, but it is very delightful, for you become the very thing that swallows you; this is the union of Jeeva with Brahman, the loss of ego in the real Self, the destruction of falsehood, the attainment of Truth.

Talk 14
The Mukta and the Siddhis

D. Hitherto I had great fear of Mukti. Till now I regarded it as horrible. Now I see that it is a very agreeable state. Now as regards the powers called Siddhis, are they to be achieved and are they opposed to Mukti?

M. The highest Siddhi is realisation of the Self, (Atma-Sākshātkāra); for, here once you realise the truth you cease to be drawn to the path of ignorance.

D. Then what are the Siddhis,…?

M. There are two kinds of Siddhis; one kind may well be a stumbling block to realisation. It is said that by mantra, by some drug possessing occult virtues, by severe austerities or by Samādhi of a certain kind, powers can be acquired; but these are not means of Self-knowledge; even when you acquire them, you may quite well be in ignorance.

D. What is the other kind?

M. They are manifestations of power and knowledge quite natural to you, when you realise the Self. They are Siddhis, products of the normal and natural Tapas of the man who has reached self-attainment. They come of their own accord, they are God given; they come according to one’s own Karma so to say, but whether they come or not, the Siddha of the Real, settled in the supreme peace, is not disturbed. For he knows the Self and that is the unshakable Siddhi. But these Siddhis do not come by trying for them. When you are in the state of realisation, you will know what these powers are (cf. Ramana Gita, Ch. 11).

D. You have said that a Mukta in the long run by his natural tapas can become intangible, invisible, can assume any form…

M. Yes: it is the Mukta that is most competent for such developments. But you cannot judge the Jnānin by these developments, as they are not signs of true knowledge, which essentially consists in possessing an eye of equality (Samatva drishti) सर्वभूतसमत्वेन लिगेन ज्ञानमूहृह्यताम् (Ramana Gita 1 : 16).)

D. I have done. But one doubt more.

M. What is it?

D. You said ‘Heart’ is the one centre for the ego-self, for the Real Self, for the Lord, for all…

M. Yes, the Heart is the centre of the Real. But the ego is impermanent. Like everything else it is supported by the Heart centre. But the character of the ego is a link between spirit and matter; it is a knot (granthi), the knot of radical ignorance in which one is steeped. This granthi is there in the ‘Hrit’, the Heart. When this knot is cut asunder by proper means you find that this is the Self’s centre.

D. You said there is a passage from this centre to Sahasrāra.

M. Yes. It is closed in the man in bondage; in the man in whom the ego-knot, the Hridayagranthi, is cut asunder, a force-current called Amrita Nādi rises and goes up to the Sahasrāra, the crown of the head.

D. Is this the Sushumnā?

M. No. This is the passage of liberation (Moksha.) This is called Atmanādi, Brahmanādi or Amrita Nādi. This is the Nadi that is referred to in the Upanishads. शतं चेंका च हृदयस्य नाड्यः तासां मूर्धानमभिनि : सूतैका तयोर्ध्वमायन्नमुतत्वमेति ।

When this passage is open, you have no moha, no ignorance. You know the Truth even when you talk, think or do anything, dealing with men and things.

D. Hearing all this I am puzzled. I do not know how one can get such great experiences by simply bearing in mind the sayings “See the Seer”, “know thy self,” “I am Brahman” etc.

M. It is difficult indeed, but not impossible once you are earnest about it…

That is why they say you must have the touch of Grace Arulum Venumey. The influence of Jnānin steals into you in silence…He need not talk.

Talk 15
Hand your burden to the Lord to hold

D. When I am here I am convinced; I am impressed. But when I go out and think of society or of my country and I remember your answer ‘Know thyself’…

M. What can you do to society or your country when you are weak? You must become strong first. But I tell you, Self-attainment is the supreme strength. Do not fear that you will lose strength to act when you become a Jnānin.

D. I have that fear.

M. You should not have it. If you are destined or chosen to do a particular thing, it will be done.

D. Then should I resign everything? Can I not perform Tapas (austeristies) and ask God to grant my desires?

M. You can. But there must be some Abhyāsa, some Sādhana for Tapas or for your prayers to reach God. When you are in the Sādhana, whether it is meditation or prayer, will you be thinking of your desires or of God?

D. If I think of my desires in meditation, it is no Dhyāna at all.

M. Then take it that there is the same Dhyāna, the same Tapas, the same meditation, for both, Sakāma or Nishkāma, whether it is actuated by desire or is disinterested.

Even when your desires are fulfilled, the Tapas grows. It does not cease. That is the true character of Tapas. It is the same in the case of Bhakti also.

Now I put a question to you. When a man with luggage gets into a Railway carriage where does he keep it?

D. He keeps it in his compartment or in the luggage-van.

M. So he does not carry it upon his head or on his lap.

D. None but a fool would do so.

M. If you call him a fool who keeps it on his head, a thousand times more foolish is it to bear your burden when you get into the spiritual life, whether it is Vichāra-mārga, path of knowledge, or Bhakti-mārga, path of devotion.

D. But can I throw off all my responsibilities, all my commitments?

M. Now, look at the temple tower (Gopura). There are many statues in it and there is a big statue, one in each corner. Have you seen them?

D. Yes. I have.

M. Now I tell you this. The big tall tower is supported by those statues.

D. How can that be? What do you mean?

M. I mean, when speaking thus, that it is not more foolish than your attitude when you say that you have to carry and are carrying all cares, burdens, responsibilities, etc…

The Lord of the Universe carries the whole burden. You imagine you do. You can hand all your burden to his care. Whatever you have to do you will be made an instrument for doing that at the right time. Do not think you cannot do it unless you have the desire to do it. Desire does not give you the strength to do. The strength is the Lord’s.

D. Am 1 to understand that you are giving me the essence of Karma yoga.

M. It is the essence of Karma yoga, of Bhakti yoga, why, even of Jnāna yoga, for even though the paths in the beginning may differ, they all eventually lead to this position.

Talk 16
The Ashramas and the social rule

D. They speak of the four Ashramas or prescribed vocation in life. What is their meaning?

M. To go by stages is a social rule intended for the generality. But if one is a pakvi, a well developed being, he need not mind this rule. Young or old, man or woman, Brahmin or outcast, if one is paripakvi, fully ripe, he or she can and does go straight to the goal, without minding the stages.

D. Then, Ashramas have no use for the spiritual life.

M. The first three Ashramas are there for the conduct of worldly affairs in life (गतये लोककार्याणां) and are regulated in such a way as not to clash with the ideal of spiritual knowledge (न ज्ञानप्रतिकूलता).

D. What about the fourth, Sannyāsa?

M. Oh, Sannyāsa does not lie in taking to the begging bowl, or having a clean bald-headed shave, or putting on an orange-coloured robe (न काषायो न मुण्डनम्).

When the Brahmacharin (the student) with his purity exalted by celibacy, becomes by detachment an ideal householder for the service of others, or of society the Light naturally flashes forth.

Then for the purpose of Tapas, for concentrated effort, the third Ashrama (वानप्रस्थ) is intended. When by ardent tapas, the tapaswin becomes crystal-pure and fit, the fourth Ashrama automatically comes. As I said, it is not an external thing that one assumes.

Talk 17
Society and the goal of mankind

D. What is my duty to society? What should be my relation to it?

M. You are a limb of society. Society is the body, individuals are its members, its limbs. Just as the various limbs help and co-operate with one another and thus are happy, so each must unite with others in being helpful to all in thought, speech and action… One may see to the good of one’s own group, i.e., the group that is immediate to him, and then proceed to others.

D. Some speak highly of Shanti, Peace; some praise Shakti, power. Which of the two is good to society?

M. For the individual, ‘peace’ is absolutely essential; power is necessary for the upkeep of society. By power one has to uplift society and then establish peace therein: शक्त्या सङ्घ विधायोंच्चै : शान्ति संस्थापयेत्ततः (Ramana Gita 10:8)

D. What is the goal towards which mankind on earth is moving?

M. Real equality and fraternity (समत्वं सौभ्रात्रम्) form the true goal; for then Supreme Peace may reign on earth, and the earth herself can be a single household. (तदेयं शोभते सर्वा भूमिरेकं गृहं यथा) Ramana Gita 10:11).

D. The ideal is grand. But if great men, Jnānins, are quiet in the caves, how can society be helped?

M. I have often said that Self-attainment (Atmālābha) is the greatest good to society. And…

(The Subject was not pursued further, as M. always maintains that the Jnānin is not an inert mass: vide infra Talk 7.)

Talk 18
The equality of the Jnānin

D. You have said that the Jnānin can be and is active, and deals with men and things. I have no doubt about it now. But you say at the same time, that he has no difference (भेदभाव); to him all is one, he is always in the Consciousness …; if so, how does he deal with differences, with men, with things which are surely different?

M. He sees these differences as but appearances, he sees them as not separate from the True, the Real, with which he is one.

D. The Jnānin seems to be more accurate in his expressions, he appreciates the differences better than the ordinary man…If sugar is sweet and wormwood is bitter to me, he too seems to realise it so. In fact, all forms all sounds all tastes etc. are the same to him as they are to others. If so, how can it be said that these are mere appearances? Do they not form part of his life-experience?

M. I have said that equality is the true sign of Jnāna. The very term equality (समत्व) implies the existence of differences. It is a unity that the Jnnāin perceives in all differences, which I call equality. Equality does not mean ignorance of distinctions. When you have the Realisation you can see that these differences are very formal, they are not at all substantial or permanent, and what is essential in all these appearances is the one Truth, the Real. That I call unity …You referred to sound, taste, form, smell, etc., True the Jnānin appreciates the distinctions, but he always perceives and experiences the one Real in all of them. That is why he has no preferences. Whether he moves about, or JOIN talks or acts, it is all the One Real in which he acts or moves or talks. He has nothing apart from the one supreme Truth.

Talk 19
Shakti and Shakta:
The Eternal Power and the Immutable Presence

D. The trinity (Triputi) of knower, known and knowledge is an appearance; you say that there is a unity, behind it, supporting it. What is this unity, is it a powerful one?

M. It is an All-powerful existence, (सर्वशक्तम्).

D. You have often said, and the books also say, that Brahman is immobile. Now you say, it is all powerful. Does it not then move?

M. Power implies movement. Though Ishvara moves by his power (Shakti), which is movement, He transcends the movement, He is achala, atīta (अचल, अतीत).

D. Is there no difference between Shakti and Shkata, the Power and the Powerful?

M. No. That depends upon your attitude. There is only one Truth. Looking at the movement, one calls it Shakti, Power; settling himself in the support of the movement, Āshraya, another calls it (तद्वस्तु) Achala. If the former is activity, vyāpāra, the latter is its support, Āshrayı, JOIN substance. Shakti and vastu, force and substance, are inseparable, are indeed two aspects of one and the same Truth. Only without the Shakti vyāpāra or the movement of the power, the Real substance (वस्तुस्वरूप) is not apprehended. (विना शक्ति नरश्रेष्ठ स्वरूपं न प्रतीयते). (Ramana Gita 12:20).

D. What is the true character of Shakti?

M. It is coeval with the eternal Iswara; it has no existence apart from Him. It is the eternal activity (vyāpāra) of Ishwara, creating the myriads of worlds.

D. Worlds are created and they perish. How can you say that this activity (vyāpāra) is eternal?

M. Supposing all the worlds in course of time are dissolved, still they persist in activity through lying latent (लीनवत्).

That is to say, Shakti does not perish. What then is this movement? Every moment there is creation, every moment destruction. There is no absolute creation, no absolute destruction. Both are movement, and that is eternal.

D. Then shall I take it that Shakti and vastu, vyāpāra and Āshraya, both are aspects of the same Truth?

M. Yes, but this whole movement, the creation, called a play of Shakti is a formulation (Kalpanā) of the Lord (ईशकल्पना). If this (Kalpanā) is transcended, what remains. is Swaroopa (स्वरूप).

Notes

Copyright claimed by Sri Ramanasramam. Reprinted from K., Sat-Darshana Bhashya and Talks with Maharshi, 8th edition, 1993, published by Sri Ramanasramam.

Kapali Sastry (1886–1953) was a Sanskrit scholar and disciple of Ganapati Muni, Ramana Maharshi, and Sri Aurobindo. His Wikipedia page is here.

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This page was first published on March 9, 2025 and last revised on March 10, 2025.